It's disturbing. Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. I dont know. People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. Murder is a crime. Beloved husband of Dorothy L. (nee Bury); loving father of Kathy (Dan) Lovell, Susan (Bill) Beifuss, and Albert (Janet). He has had serious chronic abusive and unruly behavior for decades. It is my prayer that others whove been hurt find assurance in Gods peace. link. A lovely woman in my church was an alcoholic. Each person arrives at their own solution, in their own time, for their own relationship. Whatever that hurt is, it must be addressed. He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. *rar , '*& . All. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? I was only thinking of verse 11. She couldnt help it that she forgot so quickly. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or Its just that the timeline suggests grief at the loss of his wife has something to do with why he started sinning that way. And the pile-on. My young wife used to attend a few of my classes with me. The older I get and remain in a faith crisis of my own, I definitely think being church-y, and thinking about what God thinks, and caring about what God may think about this or that, adds a whole other level of unnecessary complication on to life. Hes on audio stating that when he went into court the next morning, he had no memory of the previous evening and didnt even know if his boys were alive or dead. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. May his tribe increase until we take vigorous steps to drastically change our whole culture in this matter. . Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. Come on People!!!! I was even on anti-anxiety meds for a few years. You get the family together and do an intervention. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. and me and Barbara advocated that alcoholics should be kicked out of the church. This often does not happen because money is not available. However, this particular distortion of guilt feelings can be complicated since authentic guilt may occur even if a person drinks without ever becoming drunk. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. Yes, he was suspended, but he was suspended WITH PAY. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. The Church is to restore those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them. @ Velour: Contra Costa County? I dont know. If you think gossip is on the same level, go turn all of the gossipers you know in to the police. There is no cause and effect, no correlation at all, between RC Jrs family deaths and his heavy drinking. We had a great time together. Thank you. im in those environs every so often. My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. Then for a while I was admitting staff physician in charge of adult female admissions at a large psychiatric hospital. I have not crossed that line to my knowledge. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. __ His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony. That is not the point. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. 2008 - 2023 INTERESTING.COM, INC. Would love to see some stats on that. He boasts about it in his Ligonier Tales with no regret, remorse or embarrassment expressed. Ive had people pressure me to drink when Ive gone to parties (when they see me standing there sans drink in hand), and Ive had a few people ask me if Im a recovering alcoholic. Most revealing are the forums and blogs by ex members. I doubt I will. Nevertheless, it is classically associated with lying and unhealthy denial things that are not becoming in a follower of Jesus. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. Usually that requirement is listed in the sentencing. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. But I have not seen anyone say, Kick them out of the church!. No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. And yes, we must continue to pray. Denise Sproul passes away from leukemia. We now approach these matters much more like a spiritual team and have developed richer relationships not dependent on being part of the organization. By the way if you had bothered to read the post, you can see I did find some help by way of material by MHPs, but I had to find that material on my own, because the MHPs I consulted in person over years were or no help. Barbara wrote a pretty nasty response to me and H.U.G. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. Their denial is just a problematic as the person who is the problem drinker. . It sounds so evil. I would also like to say that in my own extended family there are some alcoholics. He did get booted out of office and will most ptobably lose his law license . Velour wrote: This Wikipedia article covers things like the Ashley Madison scandal and his defrocking. Eventually, he regained visitation with his son and found a job. Let the medical personnel deal with motivations, when and if the person ends up in treatment, if they think that is helpful. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. 1. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). It beat opioids for me. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. Id also add that AA, in the case of one of my family members, after he stopped drinking, contributed to his so-called stinking thinking.. They spent a lot of time helping RC Jr. when his wife was dying. Hi Julie Anne, Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. They also throw in the slander term. (Which, admittedly, was not a part of the original discussion.). Hi Julie Anne, It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. and me that we had a problem with the Bible. My mother would ask me the same question over and over. Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. A probation department typically makes a written recommendation to the judge about the course of treatment, that includes professional treatment. When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. RC Jr was also addicted to tobacco, in the form of an even nastier habit, chewing, but eventually gave it up. A further thought, Velour. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. How do you see it different from me? I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. I find that the best part of blogging. Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. You want to see whence my fury? I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? Barbra said that R.C. There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. leads to much worse compulsive drinking. By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. WOW!!! That is them saying that, not me. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse.. 3. a rapist, @ okrapod: One may be a choice, the other, an illness. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? Amen! Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. He has been defrocked along with other troubles and has worked for years for his father who continued to pay him out of Ligonier funds in spite of his issues. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. I very concerned that in this day and age with all of the resources available to help guide the church with handling serious problems including substance abuse that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] I went through something similar, only no one died, I was 18 and driving, and the driver who hit me was not drunk he was undergoing chemo, wasnt supposed to be driving. Sproul 2 has done. Please pardon me for saying this, but from the tone of your comments, it seems as if your reaction was more to go to war with Barbara than to try to find out what she actually meant. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. But as others have said, if he doesnt go into treatment voluntarily and want to get help, it will do no good. I feel for his family and his victims but there wont be any hugs coming from my direction. We have gone several rounds. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. You might as well talk to a brick wall. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. When he was stopped, the officer observed that Sproul needed support to walk, he swayed, mumbled and had a moderate smell of alcohol on his breath. Or would you see the situation differently? I would be very surprised if he hadn't at least been required to go to a few meetings. Best to ignore the barbs. We are very fortunate to have these services available for people who cant afford them. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). The exchange of viewpoints is very effective. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. He totaled many of my grandparents vehicles. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. I feel so sorry for those kids all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. I raised a kid that a sibling could not care for, and never, not one time, ever not once was I not there, my nephews words, not mine. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Thank you for sharing. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. I dont think he knows what it is to love someone other than himself, and he doesnt do a good job of even that. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? If I have said something that has caused you harm, please let me know. When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. It was pouring rain outside, but I gave the drink back to him and told him to take me home. I already alluded to the fact that there is much more than the public is aware of. Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. It is complex. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. This is not all that safe sometimes. Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. From what Im seeing on this thread, RC Jr. is Mark Driscoll, but only with more beer added. I would tend to agree with her about this person, assuming that he has, as some have claimed, publicly and speaking from some position of religious prominence defended his actions. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. But to take that info and post it here? All this to say, I am so very glad you survived! They do more harm than good. I am guessing that since took the Pirates job, that money was an issue for him, and my nickel bet is thats behind this book. Moreover, there is a context to this discussion. Sometimes it takes the strength of one brave soul to shine the spotlight on evil and help save victims. I am grateful that R.C. Why dont you take a break from the put downs of other people like me, telling us what to do, how to think, how to feel, and that were not entitled to our opinions? He didnt just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. In this particular case, RC2, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Welcome to TWW. Velour wrote: Velour wrote: Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee), wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. But we have to remember that those consequences dont have to be eternal ones but only temporary. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? Sin is cosmic treason against The Holy God. throw him out of the house. He was also arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his two minor children who were with him in the car. While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. Barbara wont even permit the word codependency to be used on her blog. In my family, there was a sudden death and one of the parents reacted with extremely heavy drinking (binge) and ended up with delirium, shaking, and experiencing auditory hallucinations and feelings of being persecuted a psychotic break. To my knowledge I have never expressed a medical opinion here; other opinions you bet, but never as a medical professional I think. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. For another example allong another line, what about people who make a career out of being hurt, like the current epidemic of snowflakes. Hope makes not ashamed. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. ALL FAKE NEWS. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. The mental/audio equivalent of Beer Goggles. I would just like to add that many Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places. 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