The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. Steve. How do we know this from the New Testament? Yeah. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Okay. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. Thats not true. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. So thats all up there as well. What the church teaches is that infallibility does not cover preambles or evidences that are used to formulate a doctrine. For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? Yes. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. This is hard, isnt it? Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. Yeah, no, fair enough. From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. - Fr. As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. Yeah. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. Oh, wow. And another is a partial contradiction, such as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses on the identity of Jesus. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Okay. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. I will take away their sins. No, it doesnt. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. Thanks for the super chat. When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. But since it allows for Mary to have died, then it is much of a partial contradiction to scripture as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses of Jesus being the son of God and Michael. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. He did exactly what Jesus did. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. I mean, actually you and I would agree on this. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. I dont think he could do that. But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. So I think its important that each of us, we dont have a problem with We might have a problem how to apply it but the basic level mother of God isnt contradicted by scripture. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. Its like, because-. So they probably were aware of something very special about her at that time. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Locals is a free speech platform. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. You have seven-, All right. Do you? My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? I have also appeared several In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. Their issue is about the authority of the church. Please join our community. I dont know how you would feel. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. Were going to be taking those questions. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. It doesnt even imply that. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. Theres no contradiction there at all. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. How would you treat that thing? But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. More on that in a moment. Its a good question. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. He offered them in the debate. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. So Steves defending the affirmative. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. Some of the ways Trent and I would agree that a dogma contradicts scripture is explicitly, implicitly, or partially. No. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 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